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David

Testosterone

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So I just had my annual physical and asked my doc to check my T levels. He was resistant and sarcastic about it - 'Well, what's the point? What are you going to do about it anyway? Spread something under your arm so your wife will come out of a rainbow like in that commercial? There are side effects, you know. ' - and he pissed me off enough so I am now looking for a new physician. But all that aside, the result came back and he insisted everything was 'normal.' The number was 411, which sounds pretty low to me, even for a 51 year old guy.

My question is, especially for older guys, what are your experiences with getting T levels checked, what have you been told is a good normal range, and when, if ever, should someone like me be considering some kind of boost? Thanks.

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Check out:

Long story short, your T levels are a little less than average, but probably a fair bit higher than they were before you started lifting.  And there are things you can do to remedy that that aren't crazy.  Essentially they boil down to limiting the phyto and xeno estrogens in your diet and increasing saturated fats in your diet.

 

Most common phytoestrogen is Soy and it's derivatives.  This is more of a concern if you have high soy levels in your food (probably more common with vegetarians).

 

Xenoestrogens come from a number of sources like pesticides, hormone injections in animal products, and many grooming products.  Essentially you'll want to do what is sane to improve what you can.

  • Physical exercise--primarily lifting weights.
  • Organic foods are better than mass produced (i.e. organic spinach doesn't have the abundance of pesticides that mass produced spinach does).
  • Avoid heating food in plastics--use ceramic or glass to avoid phthalates (a softener in many plastics)
  • Use grooming products without parabens (a preservative in most grooming products) and phthalates

If you are interested: both Every Man Jack and Burts Bees are brands of cleaning and grooming products that avoid those xenoestrogens.  I can vouch for EMJ being a good quality product where you still smell nice at the end of the day (compared to what the author of that T series used).

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Awesome, really helpful Mav. Though I am vegetarian I have basically cut out anything soy. All my protein is from milk/dairy products and eggs. The grooming product info is interesting as well. Definitely checking out EMJ. Thanks!

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The number was 411, which sounds pretty low to me, even for a 51 year old guy.

Never quote the number in isolation. If you choose to go the path of learning about endocrine system and hormone optimisation (I think All Things Male is a good source of info, although as always on the internet, I'd double check and triple check all the info fed to me), you will learn that it's important to quote both the reading and the reference range supplied with it. The reason for that is that different labs measure things in slightly different way (and each machine is calibrated differently), so you need both to interpret the results.

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Yep.  The article on "how to measure T" describes the differences in Total Testosterone, Sex hormone binding globulin, and free testosterone.  It uses a 1996 study to come up with the reference range for healthy males at different age ranges.  It also discusses the different types of tests, how accurate they are, etc.

 

Just use the articles I linked to as a stepping stone to understand T levels and all that--I think it's a pretty decent intro to the topic.  KaKTY3 is very correct about double checking sources.

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Guest Robernaut

As far as natural supplements go, to boost your natural test production, there is D Aspartic Acid and Bulbine Natalensis.  The former increases test production between 30% and 40% in males, which is not enough to benefit hypertrophy but should make sure you are firing on all cylinders. The latter has not had any human trial yet (that I am aware of) but is reported to increase testosterone by 347% and decrease estrogen by 34% in rats.  If that is replicated in humans that would be enough to replace milder AAS without the side effects (because you are not putting test into your body, you are improving your own production of it).  I have found a site where a guy who takes peds tested his bloods on and off a cycle of Bulbine Natalensis and his % did increase significantly (he compared it to Anavar, a mild AAS) and also review the literature he could find.  Obviously we do not know how credible that is.

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As far as natural supplements go, to boost your natural test production, there is D Aspartic Acid and Bulbine Natalensis.  The former increases test production between 30% and 40% in males, which is not enough to benefit hypertrophy but should make sure you are firing on all cylinders. The latter has not had any human trial yet (that I am aware of) but is reported to increase testosterone by 347% and decrease estrogen by 34% in rats.  If that is replicated in humans that would be enough to replace milder AAS without the side effects (because you are not putting test into your body, you are improving your own production of it).  I have found a site where a guy who takes peds tested his bloods on and off a cycle of Bulbine Natalensis and his % did increase significantly (he compared it to Anavar, a mild AAS) and also review the literature he could find.  Obviously we do not know how credible that is.

 

 

Well....that would be awesome if it was safe for human consumption.  Although i'm sure it would either end up banned by most Drug administrations, or at the very least end up on WADA's banned substance list for sports

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eat fats

take vit d3

work out hard

use a test booster

like daa and testo pro

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If you read the articles I posted you'll find that "use a test booster" is unnecessary to raise T back to optimum natural levels.  It's not magic, it's just understanding a bit more about your body.

 

Oh, and I forgot another natural T booster in my summary above:

  • Increase the amount of sex you have with your wife

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Does one really have all that much control over the amount of sex one has with their wife? :P

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If you're a man, you do.

(That was a joke)

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as for the levels considered 'normal' it's crap

Basicaly they tested the T levels of a range of men from youngsters (18-20) in fine health, to oldsters (80+) who are ill

if you fall within those parameters, you have 'normal' test levels (I believe 'normal starts at 250 IIRC from my research)

your test is pretty close to average, so no boosters needed I think, although this is not always the case

my T is naturaly around 275 and that's with a diet with plenty sat fat and lifting heavy, clear hypogonadism, and on of my testicles is shrunken, so I should realy be on test

I actualy have a scrip for test cream, but it's such a PITA I don't bother

the Bulbine looks interesting, but is sort of expensive I do seem to get a bit of help from supplemental Zinc, D3, and Magnesium, and the test cream helps when I take it, but your levels aren't low enough to warant hormone replacement therapy

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my T is naturaly around 275 and that's with a diet with plenty sat fat and lifting heavy, clear hypogonadism, and on of my testicles is shrunken, so I should realy be on test

I actualy have a scrip for test cream, but it's such a PITA I don't bother

 

Get a different doctor and go on the proper HRT, dude.

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What would constitute proper HRT, Kakty?  My doctor is pretty opem to working with me, I was the one to suggest the cream, rather than Androgel, which is ridiculously expensive and worse that the cream, PITA wise

I asked about pill form but he said the pills basicaly don't work 

I know the cream does something, my test levels did go up while I was using it, but honestly not a lot

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Guest Robernaut

Pills have to be methylated so the test does not get destroyed by your liver, and because of that they really hard work on your liver (damaging).  Contemporary wisdom suggests limiting use to 4 to 6 weeks at a time, so I doubt they'd be much good for TRT.  Normally TRT is done with Testosterone Ethenate, which is injectable and has a reasonably long ester so you'd end up needing an injection fortnightly (I think, possibly monthly).  There are other esters for test which can last six months I believe.  That's the sort of stuff you are looking at for proper TRT.

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Hmmm, I'll have to look into that, I have no problems giving myself intra muscular injections

 

any idea on cost? honestly the cream from the formulary pharmact costs less without insurance than the gel would with it (formulary pharmacy doesn't take insurance)

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any idea on cost? honestly the cream from the formulary pharmact costs less without insurance than the gel would with it (formulary pharmacy doesn't take insurance)

 

In Europe, they normally prescribe Nebido, which is a injectable testosterone undecanoate (undecoanate is a type of ester that determines the speed of testosterone release into bloodstream). Undecoanate is a very long ester, the injectable cycle is normally 12 weeks. The main downside is the cost, as it provides very stable physiological hormone levels.

 

If you can get prescription for testosterone enanthate (another longish ester, as Rob suggested) this would be a cheaper option, as there should be a generic variant available in the pharmacy (I only found

Wal-Mart as source, which seems rather expensive, but perhaps you can order from another state -- I am not too clued up on the US practicalities, I am afraid). You'd need to inject once a week, probably, but, of course, discuss details with your doctor!

 

Good luck! Low T sucks balls.

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i have same problem

 

my level is 320

 

optimal for my age is 700 above

 

taking---

 

100mg cod liver oil with butter oil

d3 4000iu

zinc

magnesium transdermal therapy

 

 

cruiferous veges

 

 

changes noted in these 4 days

 

better sleep

get huge ass erectins in morning

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As far as natural supplements go, to boost your natural test production, there is D Aspartic Acid and Bulbine Natalensis.  The former increases test production between 30% and 40% in males, which is not enough to benefit hypertrophy but should make sure you are firing on all cylinders. The latter has not had any human trial yet (that I am aware of) but is reported to increase testosterone by 347% and decrease estrogen by 34% in rats.  If that is replicated in humans that would be enough to replace milder AAS without the side effects (because you are not putting test into your body, you are improving your own production of it).  I have found a site where a guy who takes peds tested his bloods on and off a cycle of Bulbine Natalensis and his % did increase significantly (he compared it to Anavar, a mild AAS) and also review the literature he could find.  Obviously we do not know how credible that is.

http://www.talkanabolics.com/post/Bulbine-Natalensis-the-truth.-6108447

 

 

i assume this is the study

 

 

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@weightconqueror, have you taken a look at your lifestyle habits to see if you are doing what's necessary for optimal T?  One of the main reasons all the dietary recommendations for athletes in general look pretty much the same is because it works.  Lean proteins, saturated fats, carbs from veggies, fruits, and certain grains (all the same ones) is a recipe for getting your body to operate optimally.  If you are above the athletic range of body fat (10-15% for men), getting within that range does wonders for proper hormonal balance.  Vegetables like kale and spinach actually combat excess estrogen.

 

If you suspect there is something more than your lifestyle choices working against optimal T levels (like @Art is dealing with), then definitely talk to your doctor.  However, if your lifestyle choices are not on point, correct those before trying to resort to HRT.

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Hmmm, I'll have to look into that, I have no problems giving myself intra muscular injections

 

any idea on cost? honestly the cream from the formulary pharmact costs less without insurance than the gel would with it (formulary pharmacy doesn't take insurance)

 

I was originally just under 200 ng/dl.  After 6 months on a gel I wound up essentially only slightly better.   Also, the gels are just a real PITA.  They smell, are sticky, there is a risk of transfer, take time to apply, you can't shower or swim a while after applying, are not as effective and they are expensive.

 

I'm on injections now.  Which cost significantly less.  Injections would probably be affordable without insurance (aside from the lab costs for testing).  I'm roughly 550 ng/dl now half way through my injection cycle. 

 

Despite having low T my testicles were quite a bit above average in size.  I'm not sure if that has anything to do with hypogonadism.   I've had some shrinkage now but not too much.  Also, another curious thing that has happened is the pain I've had since getting a vasectomy has gone away.

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I've had some shrinkage now but not too much.

Entirely normal and expected. If it's really a concern, talk to your endo about adding small dose of hCG (human chorionic gonadotropin) to your therapy.

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