Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
AkumaZ

Carb Backloading

Recommended Posts

I have a diet tracker on my signature. My main 531 training log is there too.

Initial 10 day phase is 30g or less. Off days the same. Training days will try 209g protein with no limits on fats. I'll add in cheese, oils, butter. See how we go. As I train 4 days a week, I'll be carbed up a fair bit. Carbs will come from veg, rice and pizza. And some pasta of course (cooked past al dente stage according to Keifer). Ice cream and pastries fir PWO treat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a diet tracker on my signature. My main 531 training log is there too.

Initial 10 day phase is 30g or less. Off days the same. Training days will try 209g protein with no limits on fats. I'll add in cheese, oils, butter. See how we go. As I train 4 days a week, I'll be carbed up a fair bit. Carbs will come from veg, rice and pizza. And some pasta of course (cooked past al dente stage according to Keifer). Ice cream and pastries fir PWO treat.

Sounds good, looking forward to it.

I'll direct further inquiry to your log

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest ExperimentB76z

If the dude is recommending pasta cooked past al dente, it's all over for me. I'm out. I've never heard such blasphemous nonsense.

I got his book yesterday and have started to read through it. It's quite interesting stuff really. I haven't looked into these things yet, but on a fundamental level it looks like he has identified cycles of insulin and cortisol sensitivity and he structures your training and eating around that. So, rather than change your hormones - well, he does that a bit - he endeavours to make the best of what there is, and then try and amply those effects. So, rather than turning the tide on your hormone (which would be silly), you are riding the wave of them. And everything else is just making your board better at riding the wave.

I'm still looking into it, but on first impressions, it is at least very imaginative.

Good on you Vinny for having a decent crack at it. I've got to admit I was tempted yesterday to trial it :) - I may still do once my current cut plateaus. I'd rather criticise something having tried it than not. While this is anecdote, my best fat loss has always followed a 16/8 protocol.

Cheers, Jay. I haven't looked into the macro side of things yet, but it's one of the key things I'm interested in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The point of cooking pasta past the al dente stage is because of the GI release apparently. But from a taste perspective it's pretty ruinous lol.

I'm not into fad diets at all. I think it's all BS 90% of the time. Look at any kind of strength athlete over the past 20/30 years; were these guys all tubs of lard? No, the ones who worked the hardest looked great or lifted amazing weights. However, I did read an interview with Arnie who was doing the carb back loading thing in the 70s.

It's not a difficult principle for a hardcore trainer to adopt either. Taking it down to it's basic level, you skip breakfast, eat little or no carbs before 4pm, take something like a low carb protein shake before training and one afterwards for your BCAA values and then eat [x] amount of protein but with no limit on what carbs you ingest.

I think it all eventually balances out over the week if I am honest. All I will be doing is eating during the day until I am full/satisfied and then at night chowing down until I am feeling the same. No need to "overeat" or feel completely stuffed. And I'll see how this goes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest ExperimentB76z

The one thing I'm not keen on is the lack of macro planning. I quite like the idea of the 10 day ketogenenic insulin resistance reset at the beginning (though I've no idea at this stage what the empirical evidence for that is, I just like the idea of it).

Conventional thinking on nutrient partitioning or timing, based on research, is that it offers very little in the way of appreciable benefits (in fact none in the research). Though Kiefer appears to be approaching this from a slightly different point of view. I am really interested in seeing how this goes for you. It's not hugely different to what I do anyway to cut, skip breakfast, protein and salad for lunch. I tend to eat carbs before and after training, though I see why Keifer doesn't like that. My salads, though, amount to more than 30g of carbs at breaklunchmunch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My first day with carbs on that plan actually had a natural limit. It was painful to eat the amount of food I would normally eat. I guess that's the Leptin kicking in to limit Carb consumption.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My first day with carbs on that plan actually had a natural limit. It was painful to eat the amount of food I would normally eat. I guess that's the Leptin kicking in to limit Carb consumption.

I've heard about that.

I'm going to post everything I eat in pics lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest ExperimentB76z

My first day with carbs on that plan actually had a natural limit. It was painful to eat the amount of food I would normally eat. I guess that's the Leptin kicking in to limit Carb consumption.

Interesting. How did you get on with your 10 day stint in ketosis, FM?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Training went a little backwards as you can imagine, but normal energy levels were good. Now I was on vacation this weekend, so I was completely on vacation and regained just about everything I lost. I'll be back on the stick this week.

Since I don't have any heavy training, and my focus is on active recovery this week before I get back to the peaking cycle for my meet, I'll probably be stay in ketosis this week (hoping to re-lose what I gained over the weekend). I will however, have carbs two days before I start back in earnest. Maybe I'll do a heavier bodyweight exercise that day, or a more serious conditioning day than walking. That should put me in a place where I have residual glycogen stores for the more serious lifting.

On an aesthetics front, my wife was fussing over how great my arms looked after the carb cycle. The next couple days I felt like the muscles were stuffed like a tick about to pop. It was a good pump.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

CarbNite, in full, is here...

http://www.scribd.co...e-Solution-FULL

Get it while you can ;)

NOT the same as Carb Back Loading!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

CarbNite, in full, is here...

http://www.scribd.co...e-Solution-FULL

Get it while you can ;)

NOT the same as Carb Back Loading!

Get it while you can

It's another good read, though definitely outdated (it's about 7-8 years old) and in need of an update (supposedly in the works)

Fans of Chaos and Pain may notice a big similarity with Jamie Lewis' diet

And for anyone that reads and wants to try it, realize it was not designed for performance athletes. It can be done with heavy weightlifting, but volume and such will have to be scaled back or you'll run yourself into the ground and/or get hurt

I like to think of it as a good injury diet. Either one to follow while injured, or one to follow and get injured if you aren't careful (*cough Max Aita *cough)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey guys,

I started Carb Back Loading on September 1st. I'm in Day 7 of the prep phase, and following it strictly. Feels really weird going into Ketosis. I'm cranky, and mentally tired.

I'll answer any questions about my experience as best I can....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest ExperimentB76z

For the sake of completeness (roundness, swoleness perhaps :) ), here is a paper by Dr Mario DI Pasquale MD, who warns against using carbs post work out because of the adverse effect it may have on body composition. It's all supported by scientific research and he is discussing some of the same pathways that Kieffer uses (GLUTs, insulin sensitivity).

My point referencing this is - from my point of view - it's interesting that you can get two guys (one a doctor, the other a physicist) who have read through the research (or at least the bits that support them) and both have come up with two diametrically opposed opinions on carb placement to elicit the same result, both quoting research to support their view. Both have a commercial interest in selling their product.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly. Commercial interests rule in the diet world (and pretty much every other walk of life if we are being honest).

The thing is ALL diets work. Every single one of them. That's why they are called diets. The trick is finding one which works for you and your circumstances I guess.

I read that paper by Pasquale; seems a lot of the research he has used is based on rat physiology. It's not too far apart, but not conclusive either. And like you say, things are open to interpretation. These guys/product pushers rely, to some extent, on people not bothering to read the actual research. Time and time again clinical trials have been shown to be flawed or misinterpreted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's that kind of point ^^^^^^ that makes me wonder why we rely on any medical studies or research. It's quite common for there to be opposing views on the same point, backed by research etc - well both can't be right?

its outside (well outside) my area of knowledge so this is just a "lay persons" view on the whole topic - but I would imagine the individual just needs to find whatever dietary method that works for them. Could be anything - but what works for VJ here - wouldn't work for me!

cut out carbs? No toast for breakfast, days without sandwiches and chips and potatoes and pasta or rice. Mmm no thank you,

But kudos to VJ as it seems to be working for him.

I still think its a "fad" approach though and it's better to make lifestyle changes that you can live with, every week, every month.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well here's the difference between Keifer and Pasquale...

Keifer does have a mission to sell something but aside from a book and some other products he makes it clear his diet can be followed by anyone for free and with support from a website and forum.

Pasquale states that the research for low carb is good, because he advocates a low carb lifestyle, but that the PWO argument for carbs is "possibly" counter-productive. So he has a product which you NEED to purchase to resolve that issue.

CarbNite itself is a little faddy but then so is every other diet. But it is only like a keto style diet.

Carb Backloading is simply turning the tables on how you would spike insulin for the best protein synthesis and fat burning results and therefore is a lifestyle change, not a fad. CN is used by fat guys who need to be shocked into ketosis or guys looking to drop weight quickly. CBL is a maintenance/re-composition style diet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest ExperimentB76z

I've spent (too long) looking at a lot of research on nutrition generally and nutrition for sports people. If you look at all the research it's possible to come to a balanced view, but where people have a commercial interest, they generally forget about - or perhaps they never came across - research that does not support their view. If you look at research in the round, there is little to support the benefits of carb placement. That said, whatever works for you works. Diets need two things to work in my view (a) a calorific deficit and (b ) rules you can follow happily enough to sustain it.

I think Carb Backloading is very inventive in the way it is put together and pitched. It puts the age old carb cycling into a frame work of circadian biorhythms. I'm not deriding it, because there may be something to it, but in terms of being much different to carb cycling it is essentially the emperors new clothes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree entirely. As I think I said above, guys like Arnie were sticking to protein during the day and eating carbs post training. This was before the trendy terms became popular or quantified in $$$ lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most anabolic diets follow the same basic outline: low carb most of the time, high carb post training. The things that differ are the amount of carbs that count as "low" vs. "high" and how much fat they allow.

I'm willing to allow that carbs pre-training will have an effect on overall energy for the session, quickly replenishing the glycogen as you work out. I just don't have the same effect on my body as carbs post-training. And this is where intelligent self experimentation is necessary.

Based on that first experience with the carb backload night, there is a very different feeling in your body. The first 10 days of ketosis I believe is to ensure your body has depleted its glycogen stores to amplify the effect. However, when you have those carbs post training it's like you've just pumped up all your muscles. If you do it right, you get that hard pumped feeling, and if you overdo it, you will feel soft. And when your wife goes on and on about how great your arms are, etc. I'd say it's motivation enough to keep up this kind of approach.

I'm not a Keifer fan, and I got my carb backloading information from a different source. The dietary approach works for me, so I'll keep it up. Thing is, I'm not going to be religious about it. I'm getting to a place where I just don't count macros anymore. The idea is to eyeball serving sizes based on my hands as reference, and try to keep certain ratios of food on my plate. Then after training I eat until I can't eat anymore. And then I stop. I combined it with intermittent fasting, so once I'm done I'm done for the night. Which reminds me... I may have to train today just to survive the amount of food that will be available tonight.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good plan Mav.

There's not a single point being fundamentalist about a diet. Find an approach that works and stick with it. Like you say, the motivation comes from someone saying how good you look/feel.

My missus doesn't like my traps but was purring over my strong back the other day. So it's swings and roundabouts with her. She's just worried I will run off with someone else if I attract other female attention. She has no need to worry because she is the love of my life :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guys, interesting views are being expressed about diets in this thread.

The only diet I've followed for thevlast three years is "eat moar," so my background knowledge on diets is quite limited. I'm not a big guy and I was daily eating over 5000 cal per day until last November (2012). I got strong AND fat- up to 198 lbs. That's been my experience!

I agree with what has been expressed about the commercial element. I would point out that Kiefer basically gives away the Carb Back Loading (CBL) program for free with all his articles on the web, and interviews with Sean Hyson. They are pretty easy to find.

The e-book cost about $75. But, interestingly, Kiefer doesn't make his own trademarked CBL formulas of various protein shakes. Rather, he shares the ingredients (which are all commonly available) of all his formulations. It seems to me that if he were interested in making as much money as possible he'd do "super secret formulas," and force you to buy his proprietary drinks. Sure, he wants to make money but I don't think it's egregious. This is just my opinion. This element isn't a big deal for me.

Is CBL a fad diet? I don't know.

I'm giving it a try for about three months to see if I like it, and more importantly, to see if I get RESULTS.

I started 5/3/1 today, and am having my first CBL this evening. I've finished the 10 day prep phase which is a period of very low carb dieting. It wasn't easy, but I persevered. I've lost six pounds during the 10 day prep.

In short, I believe that there are "many ways to skin a cat." CBL may be one way that works. I don't have enough personal, empirical, evidence about it over the long term.

Good luck!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well done mate. I've lost 9lbs on the initial 10 day prep.

I agree with you about commercialisation; I think I mentioned this above that those who say you need something "more" on a low carb plan are usually peddling a supplement of some kind.

Have you got a log where you will document your progress? Would like to follow it if that's the case. We can both do a 3 month stint and compare results then. Sort of an experiment for IS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well done mate. I've lost 9lbs on the initial 10 day prep.

I agree with you about commercialisation; I think I mentioned this above that those who say you need something "more" on a low carb plan are usually peddling a supplement of some kind.

Have you got a log where you will document your progress? Would like to follow it if that's the case. We can both do a 3 month stint and compare results then. Sort of an experiment for IS.

For what it's worth I'm in on this now as well, following a bit more of a controlled plan though (purposes of recomping, maybe some weight loss)

Essentially I'll backload 3 days a week (MWF) after heavy evening training sessions. I'll be strictly keeping my feeding window under 3 hours (aiming to keep it under two) and aiming at about 250g of carbs each time total (includes some intra-workout gatorade + dextrose, since my sessions are often 2+hours, but may drop this)

Skip breakfast, start day off with Coffee and MCT oil, maybe some butter depending on how late I wake up, but keeping fasts under 14 hours as best as I can. Morning training tuesday/thursday will be done on black coffee only.

I don't track quite as detailed as im sure you guys would like if you were interested in following, but a typical day has me eating 1/2lb ground beef (grassfed) cooked in coconut oil and kerrygold butter with a slice of cheese. Second meal varies, sometimes it's an egg based scramble or more beef, sometimes a bag of pork rinds(which may also be snacked on throughout day, or after dinner).

ULC dinners usually very meat based, chicken wings or steak, after dinner i'll usually have some sort of snack of pork rinds or flackers(very high fiber cracker, 1g usable carb per serving) with tuna salad

On backloading nights, i'll eat either a few sushi rolls + poptarts and whatever else i feel like

or In n Out burger with fries, maybe a milkshake and poptarts (I have a bunch of these so I need to get rid of them)

or Pizza and pop tarts.

Also supplementing with EC right now, interested in trying nicotine gum though, since it's something I wouldn't have to cycle off for a competition (which is required for morality sake with ephedrine, doubtful i'll ever be drug tested in the near future). However, as far as these go I plan to be very conservative and take frequent breaks from these things so as to avoid addiction or any other side effects, though EC is pretty easy to manage.

This plan is a little modification from the typical CBL, derived from Kiefer's podcast interview of John Meadows and other information on the DH forums, as well as learning from my mistakes the first time around.

As it stands I ended the prep phase at about 75.64kg (combined with hyper hydration for a meet), filled up I was around 78-79kg on average. That was a week and a half ago. Yesterday morning (after a backload) I was 77.4kg, this morning 76.3kg(a bit surprising for me, pretty sure i had at least 20oz of new york steak last night).

So far I'm digging it in terms of weight management

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Reading the book now, and very much enjoying it. You know I have the hard-on for lots of references to scientific studies, don't you? ;)

My current plan (new as of last two weeks) is not very different from what Kiefer talks about, as I am already doing IF and carb cycling, but I may modify it to make it CBL-compliant when I am finished with the book. Aim is to gain MOAR muscleZ keeping fat at bay, as I already leaned out during the first half of the year (without any EC, Jay ;), although I had both clenbuterol and albuterol in stash, but never felt the need to use it).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×