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Guest ExperimentB76z

Iifym - If It Fits Your Macros

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Guest ExperimentB76z

This topic does not appear to have been covered anywhere, and it is kind of the weight management program I am following at the moment. I have tried a few things, and like most people, I’ve done a bit of reading around diet and used things like eating clean, low GI and post work out meals, because that is what is recommend. I’ve even given intermittent fasting a try and paleo, and read everything that goes along with them.

The problem is, with children and a family and an at times hectic business life, amongst other things, it becomes harder to follow things like paleo or IF, or even eating clean. I appreciate that you can prepare ahead, but try that with a toddler when you have little or no time to get everything done in a day that needs to be done. And try living on a mostly meat based diet with a family to feed in a recession. I don’t mean for this to be a criticism of those ways of managing your diet, just an illustration of they do not work for everyone, and that I believe is where IIFYM steps in.

IIFYM was bourn out of BB.com by a bodybuilder or two who said, in a nut shell, you can eat anything you like as long as it fits your macro profile for the day. Macros are protein, carbs, and fats. This caused outcry amongst the chicken and broccoli brigade, who claimed you can never get shredded eating pop tarts. But people do. Well, not just eating pop tarts, but by eating more than chicken and broccoli.

All you have to do for IIFYM to work is calculate your macros. This used to involve a bit of reading a some maths, but now you can use this fantastic calculator. Generally you need 1g a lb of bodyweight for protein, some fat and some carbs. Then you need to monitor your macro nutrient profile. This used to involve a small book of nutrients, a bit of common sense, and too much time figuring it out. Now you can use something to track everything like myfitnesspal, which is quick and awesome. It could not be any simpler. And providing you hit your macros each day, you will achieve the body you want.

You do not need to worry about “eating clean”, or the GI of foods; if you are a healthy adult GI has very little to no bearing on your life. You do not even have to worry bout eating six times a day. That makes no difference, so you can eat as many times or as few as you like. And you do not need to worry about eating within 30 minutes of training (not unless you work out more than once a day) because you are never going to deplete the glycogen stores in your body to merit it.

There may be some additional benefits to be had from IF, and there may be some benefit to excluding grains, et al, but all these modifications to your diet are not necessary conditions to being lean and muscular, and if you find you cannot follow these protocols, IIFYM might just work for you.

This last couple of weeks I’ve eaten out twice, eaten what I wanted when I was there (three course meal including pasta and cream and chocolate fudge cake) a mighty cooked breakfast that needed an oversized plate to carry it, and a huge roast gammon with cauliflower cheese and roasted potatoes. I’ve still lost 2 kilos. It needs balancing with grilled sea bass and potato salad, or a tuna nicoise, or even chicken and broccoli, but it doesn‘t matter if what you’re eating is high GI or low GI, or whether you’re eating twice a day or eight times. You just need to calculate your macros to suit your goal cut / recomp / or bulk, and then you’re away.

The only thing that needs mentioning is that you still need to make sure you are aware of and are not neglecting your micronutrients, which you will providing you eat as you know you should. Fruit and veg, meats, fish, dairy, that sort of stuff. No one needs any more explanation on that, but you don’t need to deny yourself everything that isn’t "clean", you just need to be aware of what you’re eating.

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IIFYM can get great results for people, too.

I just wish I didn't have so many damn food troubles - gluten intolerance, lactose intolerance....hell, even beer rumbles my stomach! Bagels are so damn cheap (and good!) that I just miss it quite a bit

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Beer is made from grains that have gluten (like wheat). Gluten free drinks like whiskey (corn) might be what you need.

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I pretty much adhere to this philosophy. I do tend to believe most fad diets are just mechanisms to "fool" people into hitting their macros, and insofar as a diet succeeds at that, it explains >95% of the results. All the other gyrations with magic foods and timing and whatnot are minor optimizations, just fiddling around the margins.

There's something to be said about certain people having problems with certain kinds of foods. But the usual confident sweeping pronouncements by diet gurus about these foods stoking the fat-loss furnace and those foods packing on the pounds usually fall flat with me. If things were really so clean-cut and dramatic, the effect would be easy to demonstrate in studies. The fact that most studies are so consistently conflicted about what foods to eat points out to me that any effect that might actually exist must be small.

I technically follow LeanGains, but that's mainly because I find it an easy program to follow; I've always had a low hunger urge; not eating breakfast isn't difficult for me, and it means I can eat denser/more delicious meals later and still hit my macros. But its the macros that really matter to me.

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Everytime I see "IIFYM" I'm like... "here comes BB.com".

IIFYM should not include stuffing your face with processed crap and junk food.

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Guest ExperimentB76z

Everytime I see "IIFYM" I'm like... "here comes BB.com".

Unfortunately, I cannot escape the heritage of the concept, and it was born out of, or at least first discussed on bb.com. I could have called it "Fits Your Macro, It Does", and said that it came from an idea explained to me by Yoda in a dream, but someone would have come along an said, your idea sounds very much like IIFYM and bb.com would have caught up with us. I do not necessarily see that IIFYMs attachment to bb.com necessarily undermines it, either. And, other than acknowledging the providence of the concept, it doesn't need mentioning again.

IIFYM should not include stuffing your face with processed crap and junk food.

Why? Certainly you cannot fulfil your macro criteria if all you do is stuff your face with processed crap and junk, because fats and carbs would undoubtedly be disproportionately high. And importantly you would be neglecting your micronutrients, which is completely the opposite of what I said to do. So insofar as that goes, a Bacchanalian feast centred on fast food is not and never has been what IIFYM stands for and everyone who follows IIFYM would agree wholeheartedly with that. However, having an occasional cheese burger and fries - which monitoring your macros would enable you to do, and no more - is not going to stop you getting lean just because someone has decided in our modern era to label these things "junk food", or because another set of bodybuilders - and it really is another set of body-builders, most of whom frequent bb.com; the broccoli and chicken brigade - have deemed a cheese burger and fries a "dirty food".

It may be a sad state of affairs, although nevertheless pretty much undeniable, that if you buy food on the high street (of the UK at least), that a cheese burger and fries is perhaps better for hitting your macros (especially if you drop the fries) than the majority of salads being pimped as healthy alternatives by supermarkets and cheese burger proprietors.

What IIFYM represents is an antidote to a lot of broscience that has developed around training, pushed by supplement companies anxious to sell products to make a profit, dieticians eager to make money out of the next fad diet based on pseudoscience or half baked theories or research like GI that has very little relevance to normal healthy adults and the dietary advice of bodybuilders of old, who have arbitrarily labelled some foods "dirty" and some "clean" with nothing more than their own anecdotal experiences to support their opinion.

IIFYM is about common sense and taking control of your diet by empowering yourself with the knowledge to do so. Far better to learn the macro breakdown of food than obsess over the GI of food stuff, especially when that only focuses on one half of a largely irrelevant equation. As a side product of that you can if you want to treat yourself now and again to foods that are forbidden on most diets.

There's far too much nonsense spoken about diet. It's time for some common sense.

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I always try to ensure I get at least my 1g/lb of protein, and my calories around maintainence, I will have fat (e.g. avocado) over carbs (e.g. cous cous), but I agree with the concept that as long as you keep your macros balanced nothing has to be off the menu.

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That's an interesting calculator. I have thought about starting to track my macros to lose some bf.

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This looks imminently sensible to me - all assuming that the person in question has worked out: a.) their calorie needs, b.) what they are attempting to achieve (weight gain/loss) and c.) has a decent capacity for restraint when needed and when faced with the ability to eat shit (a lot of people do well on a "clean" diet because they focus on the "fact" that it's better for them, then blow out as soon as they break the diet by eating one small mouthful of donut).

Macro composition of the diet and overall calorie intake are the two biggest and most important aspects for where it takes you. Find the right approach that works for you (paleo, IF, IIFYM, Dukan, whatever) and then stick with it. Be wary of anyone who tells you there's only one way to solve this problem.

My biggest concern with this is that you're using it to justify some convenient eats. But if you get in the habit of relying on convenient, fast foods, you may soon find yourself only eating that stuff. Experiment makes a good point that you still need to plan in some decent, healthy meals (i.e. meals that ensure your overall macro consumption is on point) and if you blow out at breakfast you'd better be damn sure you have something healthy in the fridge and the time to cook it come suppertime.

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To me IIFYM is like Crossfit. It's knowledge that has been around for centuries that's been packaged as some "common sense thing" to guide people who want to delegate their thinking and planning to others.

I'm a huge fan of eating an unhealthy meal at least once a week or once every two weeks just for the hell of it. To me IIFYM is basically a long way to say "don't sweat if, if you eat healthy 80% of the time you'll be fine." Same way as crossfit is kindof like "If you do a bunch of random movements you'll be in good shape. You might not be the fastest, strongest, most flexible, most endurant, but you'll be OK."

Both are gross oversimplifications that will begin to retard your development after you emerge from beginner phase. After you hit a certain level with Crossfit, you'll inevitably ask yourself what's next. You can't gain more endurance. Same with IIFYM blindly applied. YOu'll hit a certain level and you'll be like "hmmmm".

You can use any movement to work strength and get your heart rate up. But why use a continental clean when a normal clean is infinitely better for low weight? Why use a kipping pull-up instead of just getting strong enough to do normal pulls for high reps?

Similarly, you can use big Mac to hit your macros. But why make your body digest all the shit McDonald's puts in it? Why not have a grass-fed Filet Mignon, some Ezekiel bread, some roasted carrots and an Apple? IIFYM as it's usually applied doesn't differentiate between types of fats, sodium levels, pesticide use in foods, types of food, micro-nutrients, spices (many of which are highly beneficial), etc. Why not save the Big Mac for when you're in a rush / out with your girl...

Some things IIFYM will cause you to miss out on

- Superior Omega-3 profile of grass-fed herd animals (cows, bison, etc.)

- Anti-aging properties of Turmeric

- Role of soluble/insoluble fiber in digestion? Who cares!! IIFYM ETS (eat that shit!)

- Anti-oxidants in berries

- Fat-burning properties of Green Tea

- Cancer-fighting properties of Broccoli

As an example, you can EASILY hit your carb / protein macros with Soy. Yet most people avoid it like the plague. Why? Because of the estrogenic properties of the former. To me IIFYM fails the Soy test completely, and thus doesn't work as a philosophy.

Better is to make sure you get your protein in, eat only animal/fish/nut fat sources if possible, eat veggies / fruits in 1:1 ratio with protein sources, stick to sprouted/whole grains, cheat on 1-3 occasions a week, and lift heavy. That's as simple as you can make it.

However, everyone who reaches an advanced or an elite level in any sport takes nutrition and training far more seriously than IIFYM/Crossfit. Food, like training, is programmed. Michael Schumacher @ Ferrari got his blood taken before/after his time trials. They tested what he became deficient in during practice and stacked his food and supplement stack accordingly on race day. Not IIFYM. He did everything to win. Why be lazy - do everything you can to get healthier and stronger.

IIFYM gained traction on BB.com where, let's be honest, most of the user base is below 25 based on a somewhat casual review of their forums / gullibility and naiveté of their audience as judging by their "articles" on nutrition. The good GI health at this age is what helps this philosophy "work" for them. That's my theory. Try it at 45 and see what happens. The older you get, the less energy you have. I'd rather put that energy towards growth than detoxification.

I prefer to take control of my destiny. That's why my workout will never be a "Crossfit WOD". I train for the unknowable by being fit and strong. That's also why I can't just blindly eat things because they contain protein and fat in a ratio I want. Why not go get a shit ton of other benefits WHILE you eat those macros?

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^That.

I'd not make Fast food chains the main place one goes to "bulk".

If you eat way over what you really need to gain muscle, like say you require 2800 calories to gain muscle (theoretical for one person), and you stuff yourself with way over that you won't speed up the amount of muscle you'll put on.

So I don't see where the sloppy form of IIFYM comes in. IIFYM originally was intended for people who did a "clean"er bulk than those who dirty bulked.

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If you eat way over what you really need to gain muscle, like say you require 2800 calories to gain muscle (theoretical for one person), and you stuff yourself with way over that you won't speed up the amount of muscle you'll put on.

Exactly. And if you practice, you can easily get 2,800 calories with 150g of protein from foods; better that than a Whey powder laced with soybean oil and sugar, dumped in OJ made from concentrate which basically is glucose+ (too much) Vitamin C.

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Guest ExperimentB76z

I haven' advocated eating Mcdonalds to bulk and I would stand in line behind you to warn people off any kind of excessive bulk.

Some things IIFYM will cause you to miss out on

- Superior Omega-3 profile of grass-fed herd animals (cows, bison, etc.)

- Anti-aging properties of Turmeric

- Role of soluble/insoluble fiber in digestion? Who cares!! IIFYM ETS (eat that shit!)

- Anti-oxidants in berries

- Fat-burning properties of Green Tea

- Cancer-fighting properties of Broccoli

No it doesn't, not if you include green tea, broccoli, berries, etc, in your diet. I have not said to exclude these things from your diet.

The point of the thread is to advocate working out your macros and sticking your macro breakdown by monitoring your macro intake.

This last couple of weeks I’ve eaten out twice, eaten what I wanted when I was there (three course meal including pasta and cream and chocolate fudge cake) a mighty cooked breakfast that needed an oversized plate to carry it, and a huge roast gammon with cauliflower cheese and roasted potatoes. I’ve still lost 2 kilos. It needs balancing with grilled sea bass and potato salad, or a tuna nicoise, or even chicken and broccoli, but it doesn‘t matter if what you’re eating is high GI or low GI, or whether you’re eating twice a day or eight times. You just need to calculate your macros to suit your goal cut / recomp / or bulk, and then you’re away.

The only thing that needs mentioning is that you still need to make sure you are aware of and are not neglecting your micronutrients, which you will providing you eat as you know you should. Fruit and veg, meats, fish, dairy, that sort of stuff. No one needs any more explanation on that, but you don’t need to deny yourself everything that isn’t "clean", you just need to be aware of what you’re eating.

On reflection maybe IIFYM is not the best title for the thread. The main points I was trying to get across were;

  1. Work out your macros and stick to them, using the databases referenced in the OP.
  2. You don't need to be a slave to GI or baseless tenants of broscience like eat six times a day to speed up your metablosim.
  3. You don't need to fear eating out or a Sunday roast, but make sure your overall approach to nutrition is balanced.

Macro composition of the diet and overall calorie intake are the two biggest and most important aspects for where it takes you. Find the right approach that works for you (paleo, IF, IIFYM, Dukan, whatever) and then stick with it. Be wary of anyone who tells you there's only one way to solve this problem.

This, plus you need to respect your micros.

Also, this is not advocated as a diet for advanced athletes nor are many of the people training here advanced athletes. Most people are recreational lifters.

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You don't need to fear eating out or a Sunday roast, but make sure your overall approach to nutrition is balanced.

Also, this is not advocated as a diet for advanced athletes nor are many of the people training here advanced athletes. Most people are recreational lifters.

1. This we agree on.

2. It is true we are basically recreational lifters. But I have noticed, even at this stage, a HUGE difference when I consider food source.

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Guest ExperimentB76z

I'm not sure what we really disagree on to be honest. You've ascribed an interpretation of IIFYM to me which I have neither advocated or condoned, and it's really that you are arguing against rather than my view. I think we probably agree on more than you think, including reducing supplements like whey, et al, with proper food wherever possible. For a start it's more satiating and you get more micro-nutrients.

One of the main purposes of this thread was trying to coax people away from those annoying tenants of broscience, e.g. like having an expensive recovery drink after a session. For recreational lifters or people who do not exercises more than once a day, these things are entirely redundant, especially for lifters, because of the amount of glycogen stored in the body. If any thing such a practice is likely to have a negative impact on the body composition of a recreational lifter who does not follow a dietary practice which is otherwise largely devoid of carbs.

The other was to give people the information they need to manage their diets in an uncomplicated way. The overwhelming reason people are fatter than they would like is because they eat to excess (defined as more than they need). It's surprising just how many calories are in a large apple, and even if you're eating clean, one large apple a day more than you should over the course of a year is 25,000 calories and half a stone of fat you didn't want.

The average age, intellect and experience of the people on this forums is such, in my opinion, that they would already know broadly the "good" food from the "bad", which is why is said, "...you still need to make sure you are aware of and are not neglecting your micronutrients, which you will providing you eat as you know you should....", and left it at that.

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I agree with Rob's last post here that the disagreement seems to be pretty superficial.

Everyone's making good points but I think Samir is really overstating the potential negative aspects of IIFYM. Sure, you can find a fatass that fills up on cheeseburgers and whatever other shit he can cram down his gullet, but to say that IIFYM doesn't work because people might eat shitty food and/or ignore good, healthy food is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

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What I'm saying is IIFYM really isn't IIFYM.

It's IIFYM + don't eat a bunch of crap + avoid soy + get your fluids + make sure to eat 8-10 servings of plant a day + stick to whole or sprouted grains if you can + take your fish oil, etc.

So in other words, it's a gross oversimplification and a dangerous one to readers who are not diligent or thorough. If you're going to give a diet a sexy name, but the negate its name in the fine print, what are you espousing exactly?

A principle should be explained in a sentence or less. It's like a math theorem.

Example:

If you eat unprocessed food and get proteins and fats from animal sources it's OK to cheat once in awhile.

So when you really get into it IIFYM is your standard lifter/bodybuilder's diet with a twist - a justification that it's OK to have a certain amount of non-compliance. So basically, it's the crossfit of the nutritional world - something that everyone knows already but has now been given a sexy name. Why? What does IIFYM add to the human base of knowledge that wasn't already there? Nothing. But it can be understood upon first hearing by anyone.

PS - haven't ascribed anything to anyone.

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Guest ExperimentB76z

If you eat unprocessed food and get proteins and fats from animal sources it's OK to cheat once in awhile.

But that does nothing to consider calorific expenditure or macro nutrients as part of an overall diet. You can easily get fat following that sort of advice. If fact, that does very little to address the micro nutrient issue either. How from that purportedly all encompassing explanation of a theorem (which theorum), do you get a diet which includes all these;

- Superior Omega-3 profile of grass-fed herd animals (cows, bison, etc.)

- Anti-aging properties of Turmeric

- Role of soluble/insoluble fiber in digestion? Who cares!! IIFYM ETS (eat that shit!)

- Anti-oxidants in berries

- Fat-burning properties of Green Tea

- Cancer-fighting properties of Broccoli

You don't. So from a starting position of saying sound nutrition should be explicable in one sentence, you fail to do that yourself. To quote you, all you have offered is

[...] a gross oversimplification and a dangerous one to readers who are not diligent or thorough.

It would be impossible to write a single post under a 1000 words that even touched on, let alone properly dealt with nutrition or attempted to summarise everything in one concise sentence. I chose to deal with one aspect or nutrition in brief, looking at your macros to fit your goals and then how to go about effectively monitoring them. Given that most people are not aware of the macro breakdown of the foods they eat, I think this is incredibly helpful. Obviously there is more to it than that, but I did not claim that this was the solution. Furthermore, I have not advocated eating anything but a balanced diet.

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I chose to deal with one aspect of nutrition in brief, looking at your macros to fit your goals and then how to go about effectively monitoring them.

B76, in other words, this is not a diet plan (but it's posted in the diet plan forum). Perhaps this is what a lot of the discussion is about?

Look I'm not disagreeing - I myself try to hit 150-200g of protein every day while keeping below 100g of carbs. But I never gave it a name or called it a diet plan. It was part of an entire approach that would take 1000 words to describe.

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How about:

a.) Eat a mixed diet, and attempt to consume healthy foods where possible.

b.) If you cannot achieve point (a.) completely, consume whatever the fuck you like, provided it still fits your macros (i.e. if a burger fits your macro's then eat it, but if a burger + fries + coke do not, only eat the burger)

What some people consider essential foods, others consider poison (whole grains being the easiest example). The "loftier" point of IIFYM seems to be that you don't need to be a paranoid asshole who carries his food around in tupperware containers and hisses at people coming out of Burger King. If you have to eat something that's shitty, don't sweat it.

Macro's and overall calories are more important than the exact food source for body composition. Micromanaging the source of the macro's and calories is a good idea when you can, as some food options are healthier choices than others.

But no, you can't sum it up in one sentence.

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Guest ExperimentB76z

It's difficult to add to Neil's eminently sensible summary.

Whether my original post forms a "diet plan" sufficient enough to merit being put in the "Diet Plan" forum is subjective and I'll happily respect your view on that.

The problem with telling people what you should and should not eat is that, much of the information we have is - regrettably - under researched and therefore subjective. Take rice for example. People who observe a GI based diet will only suggest you eat wholegrain rice. People who eat a Paelo diet will not eat a grain at all. And there are those who will exclude wholegrain rice, but eat white rice, because there is scientific evidence to suggest that the problems with grains are contained in the husk. One grain of rice, three possible ways of eating it, and three possible points of view, all with science that support their claim is the most prudent.

Ketosis will be achieved with as few carbs as 100 grams a day. It's not optimal, but should be the net result. This is not a thread about ketosis, because there is another very good thread for that. This thread is not a thread about paleo, because there is another very good thread about that - in fact it's a fantastic thread with excellent contributions from caveman and cavewoman. There are plenty of good resources even in this forum on different types of diet. This is an alternative approach for people who do not wish to or cannot follow those diet plans, but want something to help them mitigate the excess, because invariably it is excess macro nutrients that causes extra fat. You may not identity with that and not everyone will.

The two resources I linked to are brilliant to help people figure out their macros according to their goals, cut, lean bulk, body re-comp, bulk, etc. The macro breakdown works everything out for you depending on you goals, age, weight, height, etc. There is a tremendous amount of information contained in that which I have not gone into. I need not, because it is already done for the end user. Any explanation of how to calculate your macros according to the Harris-Benedict formula or the Katch Macardle formula is unnecessary.

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To be honest, your macro calculator link is one of the best I've seen.

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Guest ExperimentB76z

Samir, you've given me some really good ideas - comments above and also the timely starting of your farmed fish thread, believe it or not - about how this thread could really be improved. Well, I'll probably let this one stand for prosperity rather than amend anything, so that people searching IIFYM can see the arguments for and against as they have been played out. But I think putting the concept of planing a diet around macros (I think some discussion on the formulas would be a worthwhile inclusion, because they were developed on research carried out on young lean athletes, which is something which should be born in mind when using them if you are not a young lean athlete), but then explaining macros, which foods provide what, what you need (depending on your training), why, the pros and cons of eating excess macros, then possibly looking in brief at the sources (by way of example, things like farmed fish, fatty acids profiles, mercury in fish and the effects of that on test, that sort of stuff). Maybe even some info on micro nutrients, if it's neither too long or boring.

Looking at the post, it doesn't properly deal with the types of issue I really wanted to address anyway, like the lack of any real need for a recreational lifter to buy recovery drinks (in fact, there appears to be a better anabolic effect the longer you leave eating after training), the full equation on GI (not the overly publicised half a story), etc, so that all needs better explanation too.

Also, while I may not have advocated a diet based on junk, MY post does not make the case against an over reliance on processed foods and junk, and the absence of that view is certainly a detractor. I don't think it is balanced enough.

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b76, I agree re: recreational lifters and their nutrition.

I never got as good results as when I used to wait 1 hour post-workout to eat anything.

I never noticed any difference in lifts/performance/gains cycling creatine, whey, caffeine-type stimulants (I drink coffee for taste though), meal timing Warrior-style or Berkhan-style. I trained full, trained fasted, trained carbed up, trained proteined up.

Important thing was to get my protein, get my vegetables (all from healthy, unprocessed or homecooked sources if possible) , and get my sleep. That's it.

BTW - I don't get how people can stick to processed foods once ANY kind of cooking skill is developed. I mean, for $5 you can have an amazing steak on the grill, without the restaurant's usual additions of shitty oil, (too much) butter, etc. Why would you settle for a shitty $5 hamburger??? Not to mention an epic difference in quality of meat.

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